Editor’s Note: Australian Foreign Minister Marise Payne paid a visit to Cambodia earlier in November in what was the first visit by a top Australian diplomat in nearly eight years. As Australia’s engagements with Cambodia expand ahead of Phnom Penh taking over of ASEAN chairmanship in 2022, VOA Khmer’s Aun Chhengpor sat down with Australian Ambassador Pablo Kang on November 16 -- after Payne’s visit. They discussed a number of topics, from the human rights situation in Cambodia, Canberra’s expectations of Cambodia’s ASEAN leadership, the ruling Cambodian People’s Party’s political and economic activities in Australia, as well as the future of the 2014 Australian-Cambodian refugee deal.
Good morning, Mr Ambassador.
Good morning, Chhengpor!
After Madame Marise Payne’s visit, we have seen a mass release of the jailed activists. Do you think her visit has something to do with these releases?
I cannot speculate. Obviously, there have been a number of trials over the past year or so. Some of those have happened to come before the courts recently. But whether or not that had anything to do with the visit, I think you'd probably have to ask the courts or the Government of Cambodia.
Did the Minister raise the issue of numerous activists facing politically motivated charges during her visit?
We've been raising our concerns around those issues consistently and regularly with the Cambodian government, both myself here at the Embassy, in Canberra, and in multilateral forums such as the United Nations Human Rights Council in Geneva.
And as you would expect, in line with that consistent approach, the Minister did raise some of those issues in her discussions with the government.
What are Australia's expectations of Cambodia, as the chair of ASEAN in 2022, with regard to key regional issues, including the South China Sea, and the broader Indo-Pacific security landscape?
Cambodia will have a challenging but potentially rewarding role. I think it's not easy being Chair of ASEAN and of course, as you rightly point out, there are a number of regional strategic issues, which are not new issues, necessarily, but continue to be points of difference or points of tension in the region.
You mentioned the South China Sea. I think that is obviously going to continue to be a focus in the ASEAN and related meetings next year.
But I think, the main topic, that perhaps hasn't been as much of a focus because it's still quite new, is the situation in Myanmar, following the coup there in February. Obviously, Australia has been watching developments very closely. We've provided a lot of support for humanitarian reliefs into Myanmar because we know, obviously, that the conflict there has exacerbated the situation on the ground in terms of people's access to badly-needed humanitarian supplies on top of the fact that, you know, we still have COVID-19 as well.
So, Australia is also very keen to support ASEAN's approach to make sure that the five-point consensus, which ASEAN leaders agreed to, including Myanmar, in April this year at their Special Summit in Jakarta, is fully implemented. So, we are there to support ASEAN to in whatever way we can to make sure that that happens.
So, Cambodia's role will be very important, as the chair of ASEAN. Of course, as the chair, it's a slightly different role from being a member state attending ASEAN meetings, because, of course, as the chair, you have to, you know, play this balancing role, making sure that all relevant interests and views are heard and conveyed during the ASEAN meetings and the related meetings.
With an increasingly significant Chinese political and economic presence here in Cambodia, does it concern you or Canberra about this kind of dominance that the Chinese may have on Cambodia, especially when Cambodia is taking the helm of ASEAN chairmanship next year?
Well, Cambodia is a sovereign country. And, of course, Cambodia welcomes investment and trade from many different countries, including from China and, of course, including from Australia.
So, you know, we don't comment on the normal sort of trade and investment relationships that the other countries have. We do know that China is a major investor in Cambodia, and certainly it's a major trading partner. I think Cambodia and China recently signed a free trade agreement, as Cambodia also did with the Republic of Korea. We also know that, for example, the United States is Cambodia's principal export destination and a country to which actually exports have been growing despite COVID.
So, I think Cambodia has a range of different partners within range that they do trade and investment. From Australia's perspective, we very much like to see, and it's part of my role is to encourage more Australian trade and investment with Cambodia. Good for us, of course, good for Cambodia, good for Cambodia's recovery from COVID.
Regarding security issues, the Australian Royal Navy warship HMAS Anzac visited Cambodia a few weeks back. The US has raised concern about Chinese assistance to modernize the base. Were you and Australian officers told of Cambodia’s plan for the Ream Naval Base?
Of course, we've been, you know, very clear in terms of the situation at Ream. Clearly, we welcomed the continuing, I guess, assurances from the Cambodian side that there will be no exclusive use for the Ream Naval Base for any country. Of course, it is a Cambodian naval base. And I know that the Prime Minister and others have talked a lot about the Constitution, which of course precludes foreign basing, talks a lot about neutrality and sovereignty and those sorts of issues.
Back in September, there was a committee hearing in the Australian Parliament about potential Cambodian government interference into Australian communities. Can you confirm whether you count this as interference, and has the Australian Government taken any action on that?
So, I think, in different parts of Australia, there's a very broad and active diaspora and there's many different views that are represented in that diaspora.
In terms of specific issues that you mentioned, I can't really comment on that. I haven't had any personal observation of that, because I'm based in Cambodia, obviously. But we have encouraged anyone who raises these issues to please ensure that they raise them with the appropriate authorities to, you know, warrant further investigation.
At the same time, there were reports about some members of the Cambodian political and economic elites making investments in Australia — buying real estate, opening up businesses. And the concern was that the Australian government is not doing enough to investigate those sources of funding and finance. Is Australian government investigating, taking any action to ensure that the source of money is not illicit and is not related to alleged money laundering?
Well, Australia has a very active anti-money laundering position worldwide. In fact, we cooperate very closely with Cambodia on anti-money laundering because, obviously, Cambodia's geographic position in this part of Southeast Asia makes it potentially vulnerable to money laundering activities coming through the region, and sometimes they're related to things like narcotics trafficking, for example.
So, we do have actually quite a bit of cooperation at a police-to-police level on issues to do with money laundering.
But again, as I said, like in terms of, if people have any concerns in Australia, then they should raise them with the appropriate authorities for further investigation. I think the committee hearing was one way of doing that. But there are other channels of doing that in Australia as well.
Do you know if any action has taken place to investigate the claims.
[You’re] probably, probably asking the wrong person on that, Chhengpor. [I’m] based here.
The US has invoked the Global Magnitsky Act to sanction one businessman and four military generals who are close to the Prime Minister Hun Sen over alleged corruption and human rights violations. We understand now that a Magnitsky Act is being legislated in Australia’s Parliament. Is Australia looking into these kinds of sanctions?
Well, you're right to say, Chhengpor, that we are reviewing our autonomous sanctions legislation. We don't call it the Magnitsky Act. I think that that's obviously a very specific piece of legislation in another country.
But we are reviewing our autonomous sanctions legislation, looking at, you know, all these sorts of issues. What application that has for individuals is still yet to be determined because the legislation has not been fully developed yet.
As Cambodia is approaching 2022 and 2023 elections, from Australia’s perspective, what are the minimum requirements that can make those election credible, free and fair?
Of course, we're very well aware that there are commune elections in 2022 and the national elections in 2023. And Cambodia's constitution says up front that Cambodia is a liberal, multiparty democracy. So, we want to make sure, to the extent that we can, we can certainly play a small role, I guess, that the conduct of those elections in both in 2022 and 2023, lives up to the wording in the Constitution itself.
We've made quite clear, privately and publicly, it's certainly no secret that Australia encourages political dialogue, political discussion, reconciliation between the Cambodian government, opposition groups, and civil society, to rebuild relations in the lead up to those elections so that they can be held freely and fairly — that people feel free to go and cast their vote, to campaign, and to run for office, and that there are a range of genuine political parties contesting those elections. That's something that we have feel quite strongly about and we've spoken about.
As I said, no, no real secret that we've raised issues with Cambodian government. We do support the work that civil society is doing and will do in the run up to those elections. And we'll be providing some additional support as we get closer to the time. So yes, it's something that we'll be looking at very closely and trying to assist in the best way that we can.
Lastly, I would like to discuss the 2014 deal between Cambodian and Australia to transfer voluntary asylum seeker from the Nauru island to Cambodia, which cost Australia 40 million Australian dollars. By the end of the deal in 2018, if I count, 10 refugees or asylum seekers came here. And at least nine of them left Cambodia. Do you see the deal as a failure or a success for Australia?
Well, Chhengpor. That deal, that agreement, I guess, was done at a very specific time for a very specific purpose.
You know, Australia has a very strong record of ensuring that we do not do anything to encourage illegal people smuggling to our country because, you know, once that happens, it's a very dangerous practice.
We've seen in the past, unfortunately, that many illegal asylum seekers who have tried to make it to Australia, they pay people smugglers a lot of money, they get put on very small unseaworthy boats, for example, from ports in Indonesia, who try and make it to a place like Christmas Island, which is obviously part of Australian territory. And unfortunately, we've seen many people drown in that attempt.
And I think what we wanted to do, at that time, is to put in place very strong disincentives so that people do not try and do that. One of those disincentives, of course, was that for anyone who did make it to Australian territory to be resettled in another country.
So that was the context at the time, as you said, you know, it's an agreement that has come and passed. Australia continues to provide a lot of development assistance, cooperation to Cambodia since that agreement.
So, just because the agreement has finished, it doesn't mean that Australia's development assistance program has somehow been negatively affected.
Prime Minister Scott Morrison himself was then the Australian Immigration Minister who came here in Phnom Penh in 2014 to sign the deal. And Prime Minister Hun Sen in 2018 told an Australian journalist that he also expressed interest to then-Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull in renewing the deal. Have Canberra and Phnom Penh been in talks, or will they renew this refugee deal right now or in the future?
Well, as I said, that was a very specific agreement for a very specific circumstance. So …
No?
Well, not at the moment. No.
(Note: The questions and answers have been edited for length and clarity.)